4 e-mails follow:
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Comments by Dr. J
>So what is your point? What is your foundation for listing the scriptures of
bondsmanship, and some that only refer to employees, and some that do
concern slavery? >
>Are you suggesting, for example that God endorses slavery such as stealing
men from Africa and selling them in America? And that a white man has a right
to own a black man, just because he is black?
My reply
My point on slavery is to show that the Bible can be used to support slavery.
I am saying that God of the Bible does not condemn slavery. Encouraged by the
God of the Bible, people of different races make slaves of other races in the Bible.
Slavery is not condemned — it is actually encouraged. God of the Bible does not
condemn the kind of slavery in your example.
e-mail 2:
Dr. J: (R. is a graduate student at the Bible College, under
Dr. J)
>R., what was God’s criteria for putting men, nations, whole peoples animals
and children into slavery (Old Testament) ?? He certainly did it.. Why?
My reply:
You are right that the God of the Bible condoned slavery. To me it is further
confirmation of my belief that the God of the Bible is not the God of the Universe.
God of the Bible is similar to the Gods of other nations in ancient times concerning
slavery. The morality of the God reflected the morality of the people. In the
New Testament, slavery is not condemned, but expected. To my God-given sense
of Justice this is repugnant. Slavery is an evil, no matter who enacts it for any reason,
including God. I think this a major weakness in the basis of Christianity.
Dr. J:
>/// Not so, this is blaming, in your opinion, racism on religious people.., I know
a lot of red-neck racist couldnt tell you which testament the book od Hebrews is in.
Lpease, lets not discuss Philosophy and ideas, just bible.
>/// As a counselor, I believe that racism results from a man’s need to be superior
to any one. This is wgy I believe that racism abounds in commiunities where people
have less than neccessary self esteme. This is clearly evidenced if you will get into
four groups. >
A. Teachers; B. Doctors; C. Poor black men with no jobs congregating on a
street corner; and D. Men attending a “County wide” tractor pull.
>O., R., which groups are most likely to be racist? C. and D. (racism is not a
white problem, it is a hatred for personal ego survival problem).
My reply:
True. You pointed out a major factor in racism.
Dr J:
>This is not a vague generality, lets not blame racism on the Bible yet..
/john >>>/// for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on
the heart.”
My reply:
Man also looks at the heart, not just the outside appearance. The Bible can be used
to justify slavery (our topic) and does not condemn it. Both, racism and anti-racism
can also be justified using the Bible. Often racist have been and are religious people
that justify their actions using the Bible — making it especially dangerous. I find the
vast majority of Christians do not read the Bible without reading commentary by others
— as if God’s perfect book is so complicated and convoluted that it should not be able
to stand on its own for each person. I’ve sat in Church listening to a sermon and
afterwards wanting to discuss it — I’ve found the some of the Christians that were there hardly knew the topic of the sermon, let alone the content — they don’t even listen to the sermon!
They don’t seem to be interested in discussing basic beliefs. They like having someone
telling them what is true and to make the telling brief and to the point. In some ways
I can’t blame them for this because of the tremendous complications of the Bible and
the interpretations for it.
…on the verses on my page on slavery. I think we have agreed on the major question
on slavery in the Bible — not specifically for each verse, but generally. That the Bible
does not condemn slavery, but has conditions for it. If you have further comments
on this topic, I’ll listen.
Dr. J:
>/// R: Do you have an answer to the question that I sent? “R, what was God’s
criteria for putting men, nations, whole peoples, animals ,and children into slavery
(Old Testament) ?? He certainly did it, But why?”
I have my explination ready for T., but I’d like to have an answer before I send it.
///
My reply:
This was your next E-mail. It sounds like you are allowing some free-thought.
e-mail 3:
Dr J:
Prov 10:18. Prov 26:25-26.
>*(GOD ON HATRED)
>Ezek 25:12-17 (as baove)
Ezek 35:5-9 * (GOD PUNISHING THE GENTILE FOR PERSECUTING ISRAEL)
My reply:
(1) What do these verses have to do with slavery?
Dr. J:
>Gen 12:1-3 (as baove)
>Deu 28:14-32 (as above)
>*(GOD ON SLAVERY AS PUNISHMENT TO THE JEW FOR FALSE RELIGION)
My reply:
I agree, God of the Bible exacts horrible punishment (including slavery) on
anyone that goes after other Gods — God of the Bible is jealous of other
Gods. Why? — If God of the Bible is the God of the Universe there can be
no other God — none to threaten Him. The verse suggests there are other
Gods in existence that are strong enough to unseat Him.
Dr. J:
>*(VOLUNTARY SERVITUDE)
>Gen 15:2 (as above)
>Gen 24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest SERVANT of his house, that ruled
over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: (and more as above)
>This voluntary servitude is much like the 6 year contracts I made with the
U.S. Navy? I couldn’t break the deal, I was a slave to their will but it was by choice.
My reply:
Voluntary slavery or voluntary servitude — could you explain a little more? —
possibly by using more Bible verses? Do you mean a contract for a limited
period of time? A contract because the slave has no other choice and needs to
survive? A contract because of benefits beyond basic necessity? Or what?
Summary on slavery, so far:
(1) God of the Bible does not condemn slavery.
(2) God of the Bible promotes slavery to punish people with different beliefs
than that set down in the Bible — God of the Bible has no tolerance for other beliefs.
Looking forward to hearing about voluntary servitude and hearing Reese’s slavery
comments,
e-mail 4, exchange
with R.:
My reply:
R.,
Thanks for your reply and the research you have done on slavery. You chose
some good verses. I assume you want me to comment on your reply.
R:
>I will begin by stating that I do believe that God did condone slavery in the sense
that we see it in the Bible. He does not condone it in the modern sense and use
of the word.
My reply:
(1) The Bible allows slavery of people from other nations — the ones that weren’t
slaughtered first. In the last centuries; people, especially from Africa, have been
brought to another country and enslaved. At least the slavery in the western
countries was stopped, but the slavery by the Israelites was supposed to be for ever.
Read Lev. 25:45,46 which was one of the passages listed on my Slavery web page.
R:
>There are several types and circumstances in which we find it. One would
be the Nation of Israel being put into bondage or slavery at the hands of the
Egyptians,and this might I add was allowed and controled by God Himself.
The reason for this Mr. Hooge was because the Nation of Israel was so blessed
of God that the pharaoh in Ex.1:7,8 began to fear them.
My reply:
(2) Why would God , after blessing Israel allow them to become slaves? —
this is not a blessing for the slaves.
R:
>In Genesis ch. 39 thru 45 you can read how God allowed a young boy named
Joseph to be sold into slavery by his own brothers and was sold again into the
hands of Pharaoh. If you wuold pay close attention to Josephs reply to his
brothers Gen. ch.45:4-11.
My reply:
(3) God of the Bible allowed slavery for a future good.
R:
>I’m sure you know the rest of the story of how this same God also raised up Moses
to lead this nation out of slavery to freedom. We also see that God at times would
allow isreal to fall back into slavery to other nation because of disobedience. For
example, Judges 3:5-9 “And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites,
Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites: And they took
their daughters to be their wives, and gave thier daughters to their sons, and
served their gods. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD,
and forgat the LORD thier God, and served Baalim an the groves. Therefore
the anger of the LORD was hot against Isreal, AND HE SOLD THEM INTO
THE HAND OF Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia and the children of
Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years. And when the children of Israel
cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel…”
My reply:
(4) God of the Bible promotes slavery to punish people with different beliefs than
those set down in the Bible — God of the Bible has no tolerance for other beliefs.
R:
>We also see slavery of one Hebrew to another Hebrew in Deut.15:12,
becuase of a debt they could not pay, you know?
My reply:
(5) Forced into slavery: Deut. 15:11 states that the poor will always be there.
Deut 15:12:–to help the poor they had a limited time of 6 years to be slaves,
then they were given some material wealth to support their freedom. Remember
this limited slavery was only for the Hebrews, not for anyone else from another
country. For the time, this was probably a very humane law, at least for the
Hebrews and I would laud it. This does not support your claim that slavery as
practiced, let’s say in the U.S. was not condoned — it was condoned in the Bible!
Remember the Bible is a purely ancient man-made book and we don’t have to
obey it if it promotes inhumanity. An alternate choice for God of the Bible would
be to give some of the wealth to the poor, to give the poor a start, without having
to be a slave. In the present, with all the wealth we have due to the application
of science there should not be any poor. This part of the Bible does not apply
anymore, because man can eliminate poverty.
R:
>So T., we see several types and situations of slavery, willing, unwilling, for
disobedience and debt. God does not condone slavery as a Black and White
issue or even because of national issues as we do(I mean we as in a society). //R
My reply:
(7) Summary:
(a) God of the Bible condones slavery.
(b) God of the Bible uses it to punish people that have other beliefs — no tolerance
here.
(c) God of the Bible condones slavery of the poor to help their material situation.
(d) God of the Bible condones enslaving people that are not Hebrew, forever —
at least in the western countries the enslavement was not forever. Hebrews were
enslaved only for 6 years.
(8) I just found a quote by Mark Twain in the 19th century on slavery in the U.S.:
“There was no place in the land where the seeker could not find some small
budding sign of pity for the slave. No place in all the land but one — the pulpit.
It yielded at last; as it always does. It fought a strong and stubborn fight, and then
did what it always does, joined the procession — at the tail end. Slavery fell.
The slavery text in the Bible remained; the practice changed; that was all.
(9) You might want to comment on my comments. What about the
New Testament verses that are mentioned on my “Slavery” page?
I would like to hear your comments on them. Thanks for taking the
time to answer.
E-mail 5
>Hello,
>I saw your Bible references to slavery and was wondering 2 things.
>1. You say that “servant” means “slave”. What is your
evidence for
>this?
The description of what a servant is to do sounds the same as what a slave
is to do.
One and the same.
>2. You say that these Bible quotes were used to support slavery. Can
>you cite books where these particular quotes were used to support
>slavery? (I’m particularly interested in the New Testament quotes.)
Three quotes out of many:
(1) Mark Twain:
“There was no place in the land where a seeker could not find some small
budding sign of pity for the slave. No place in all the land but one —
the pulpit. It yielded at last as it always does. It fought a strong and
stubborn fight, and did what it always does, joined the procession — at the
tail end. Slavery fell. The slavery in the Bible remained; the practice
changed, that is all.”
(2) Page 384 of Problem Texts by Peter Ruckman (ultrafundamentalist, founder
of Pensacola Bible Institute) stated,
” George DeHoff on page 154 in Alleged Bible Contadictions …tells us that
God abolished slavery by a process of ‘teaching and instructing the people’,
which is about as wild a statement as was ever made on commercial TV. God
never abolished slavery since it started (1 Tim. 6: 1-3, 1Cor. 7:21).”
(3) Jefferson (a slave owner) Quote:
“Let the gentlemen go to Revelation to learn the decree of God — let him
go to the Bible and not to the report of the decisions of the courts. I
said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation. … Slavery existed then in the
earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we were
told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in
the Old and New Testaments — in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of
Paul; you find it recognized — sanctioned everywhere.”
Also remember most Christians believe the God of the Old Testament is the
same as the God of the New Testament (usually Jesus).
In that case Jesus and the God of the Old Tesament are one and the same.
>Thanks,
>David Sears
>Bowling Green, OH
Good thing there is secularism,
O. Hooge
Naturalism and Religious Experience 